[00:00:00.0]
Arturo Lindsay: Complete Name?

[00:00:01.5]
Raúl Orlando Jiménez Delgado: Raúl Orlando Jiménez Delgado.

[00:00:04.0]
Renee Alexander Craft: How long have you been playing Devil?

[00:00:07.4]
AL: At what age did you start playing Devil?

[00:00:09.2]
RD: Devil?

[00:00:10.0]
AL: Yes.

[00:00:11.0]
RD: I started playing Devil in ‘82. 1982. In 1982.

[00:00:16.7]
AL: He started in 1982.

[00:00:19.0]
RD: In ‘82. Yes.

[00:00:21.5]
RC: Were you one of the minor Devils in 1982?

[00:00:25.2]
AL: In 1982. You are one of the youngest Devils?

[00:00:29.9]
RD: Yes I was one. Uh huh.

[00:00:31.4]
AL: How old were you in 82 when you began?

[00:00:33.5]
RD: 17. 16 years old.

[00:00:25.2]
AL: He was 16 years old so, yes, he was one of the minor Devils.

[00:00:29.9]
RC: What made you interested in playing Devil?

[00:00:41.1]
AL: What interested you about going out to play Devil?

[00:00:42.7]
RD: About playing Devil? Well, look, it is like I told you, it was practically like a joke.

[00:00:49.0]
AL: It was like a joke. Let me tell you.

[00:00:50.0]
RD: What happened was back in those days the Congos had their own rules, no? They were strict about their rules. So there was this one that grabbed a . . .

[00:01:03.5]
AL: Wait. Wait. Wait so I can translate this and so she has it recorded.

[00:01:07.5]
AL: Back in those days the Congos had very, very strict rules.

[00:01:12.3]
AL: The rules were really strict?

[00:01:13.8]
RD: They were strict. Yes.

[00:01:15.6]
AL: So?

[00:01:16.5]
RD: So, I stole a cane from one of them.

[00:01:20.5]
AL: I stole a cane from one of them.

[00:01:23.9]
RD: Afterwards they wanted to tie me up. It was a group of us but the main one they saw do it was me and another boy named Humo.

[00:01:33.5]
AL: He said, you know, they wanted to arrest him. They wanted to tie him up. Now, it was a bunch of guys that did it but the ones that they really took a look at was him and another guy called Humo. Humo. Which is smoke.

[00:01:47.6]
RC: Ok.

[00:01:49.0]
AL: He has got to be either very light or very dark.

[00:01:50.6]
RC: Oh ok.

[00:01:51.4]
RD: So I stole a cane from one of them. So each year that they dressed (as Congos) they would chase me. I could not be relaxed anywhere because whenever they saw me they wanted to . . . so in order to fight against that . . .

[00:02:00.0]
AL: Wait. Wait.

[00:02:01.0]
AL: So whenever they saw him, they were going after him. Whenever, you know, a Congo sees him, as soon as they got dressed up they would go after him.

[00:02:11.7]
AL: Go ahead.

[00:02:12.6]
RD: So, they would, in order for me to have some safety, I started dressing as Devil and here I am.

[00:02:22.4]
AL: So in order to stabilize everything, you know, I had to, I started getting dressed as the Diablo. Because the Diablo has the power, of course, you know . . .

[00:02:30.8]
RC: To fight back.

[00:02:31.6]
AL: . . . to whip the Congos.

[00:02:33.1]
RC: Ok.

[00:02:33.7]
RD: So from then on I started dressing as Devil.

[00:02:36.7]
AL: So that is when I began dressing as the Diablo and playing the Devil.

[00:02:41.3] 
RC: Ok. So before then you dressed as a Congo?

[00:02:44.5]
AL: Before you would dress as Congo?

[00:02:45.9]
RD: No. No. Never.

[00:02:46.0]
AL: No. Nothing.

[00:02:46.5]
RC: Never Congo. Oh ok. How long . . . How did you move from a Minor Devil to Diablo Segundo?

[00:02:55.7]
AL: How did you become the Minor Devil, the Second Devil?

[00:03:00.5]
RD: Because I was really interested in the game.

[00:03:02.7]
AL: The whole activity, was uh, interested me a lot.

[00:03:07.3]
RD: Yes. I went to Mr. Celedonio Molinar’s house, who was the Major Devil.

[00:03:09.6]
AL: I went over to Celedonio Molinar, who was the Major Devil at the time.

[00:03:16.2]
RD: . . . and he taught me how to play Devil.

[00:03:20.8]
AL: So he began to tell me how to play Devil. You want to back up probably and find out who in his family may have done anything.

[00:03:28.0]
RC: Ok.

[00:03:28.8]
AL: I do not know maybe you have that question on your list already.

[00:03:31.5]
RC: Ok. I do not know if we have that one, but that is a good one.

[00:03:33.2]
RD: It is the Congos that say who is the Devil. It depends on how you play. So they judge the . . .

[00:03:42.1]
AL: The Congos themselves began to decide who is, um, becomes, who goes up. Depending on . . . who moves up.

[00:03:51.7]
RC: Ok.

[00:03:52.2]
AL: Depending on how well they um, they play the game.

[00:03:56.2]
RD: Carlos is the Major Devil until now.

[00:03:58.0]
AL: Carlos was the first, until now.

[00:04:01.6]
AL: So it is the Congos themselves who decided that you were the Second Devil?

[00:04:04.3]
RD: Uh huh.

[00:04:05.0]
AL: The same Congos decided that he was the number two Devil.

[00:04:09.8]
RC: Ah ha. Ok. Well, I do want to go back to that first question. Who, um, who in your family over time has played Congo?

[00:04:19.5]
AL: Who in your family participates in the Congo game?

[00:04:23.0]
RD: Well, my brother.

[00:04:24.7]
AL: My brother.

[00:04:26.2]
RD: Well, my brother. He was the Little Bird (Messenger).

[00:04:28.3]
AL: My Brother was Pajarito.

[00:04:30.0]
AL: And what is your brother’s name?

[00:04:30.8]
RD: Fernando.

[00:04:31.5]
AL: Fernando? Say Fernanando’s whole name.

[00:04:34.4]
RD: Jiménez.

[00:04:35.2]
AL: Fernando Jiménez. It is his brother.

[00:04:37.9]
AL: Is he older or younger?

[00:04:39.0]
RD: Older. Older.

[00:04:39.8]
AL: Older brother Fernando used to play Pajarito.

[00:04:44.7]
RC: Ok. Did anybody else in your family play a role?

[00:04:47.8]
AL: Are there other people in your family that played?

[00:04:51.0]
RD: Now there is a brother of mine that wants to, that plays Devil.

[00:04:54.3]
AL: Is he younger?

[00:04:55.6]
RD: Yes.

[00:04:56.6]
AL: He has a younger brother now who is coming out as the Devil.

[00:05:00.7]
RC: Ok.

[00:05:02.0]
AL: Anything else?

[00:05:03.3]
RD: That is it.

[00:05:05.0]
AL: [To Renee] See now here is an interesting part in these kinds of interviews and this is the kind of thing that this young lady, you know, needs to know. I know the role his father played, you see. And that question is an interesting question to ask and why I like doing this cross interview is that you ask questions that he already knows I know. Then when he does not know other things, you know, I fill it in.

[00:05:24.3]
AL: But you are telling me that no one else in your family participated in the Congo game?

[00:05:30.4]
RD: As a Congo, yes.

[00:05:31.2]
AL: But your Father, yes?

[00:05:32.1]
RD: Ah, yes. But, he is, what happens is . . . My dad, yes. He was in charge of the baptism. Yes.

[00:05:34.4]
AL: Uh huh! See! I was telling her that people forget things. Because, you know, a question is just a question.

[00:05:43.0]
RD: Yes.

[00:05:43.5]
AL: So his father was, you know, the priest.

[00:05:50.7]
RD: Yes. He did the baptism. Yes.

[00:05:51.6]
AL: Uh huh. Until what year? He did not go out last year.

[00:05:55.0]
RD: Until like two years ago. It has been two or three years that he does not play.

[00:06:00.5]
AL: See I mean, by coming here all the time I got information that he is forgetting. He is saying that it has been maybe three years, I am saying no it is only two years.

[00:06:08.6]
RC: Ago?

[00:06:09.5]
AL: Yeah. No. He did not go out this year.

[00:06:11.3]
AL: He did not go out this year or last?

[00:06:12.9]
RD: Uh huh.

[00:06:13.7]
AL: The year before last he went out?

[00:06:14.8]
RD: Yes.

[00:06:16.2]
AL: Alright so not this year, not last year, but the year before.

[00:06:19.2]
RC: Ok.

[00:06:20.0]
AL: Is the last year.

[00:06:22.6]
AL: I believe it was like 30 years he told me he had been playing.

[00:06:25.0]
RD: Somewhere around there. Yes.

[00:06:26.2]
AL: I think it was about 30 years that he was playing the priest.

[00:06:28.6]
RC: Oh! Ok.

[00:06:30.0]
AL: He played the priest. He is the one that does the . . .

[00:06:32.0]
RC: The blessing.

[00:06:33.0]
AL. The Blessing. The bautizo.

[00:06:33.9]
RC: That is interesting.

[00:06:35.9]
AL: So yes. So, you know, the interesting thing about that is you can see where this is really a performance.

[00:06:39.8]
RC: Right.

[00:06:40.6]
AL: And you play a role because he is going to be the, he is being raised to be the Major Devil.

[00:06:46.4]
RC: Right.

[00:06:46.8]
AL: And his father was the priest.

[00:06:48.0]
RC: Right. Right.

[00:06:48.7]
RD: What happens is that the Devil was born in Portobelo. It is for that reason that I want to form . . . because the Devil was created here in Portobelo.

[00:06:54.8]
AL: He says that he has a very strong interest in the Devil because the whole notion of the Devil as part of the culture starts in Portobelo. It does not start anywhere else.

[00:07:05.2]
RC: Talk about why that is true.

[00:07:06.8]
AL: Tell me why that is true. Explain to her how the Devil was born in the village.

[00:07:13.3]
RD: Well look, the Devil . . . There was this man.

[00:07:17.2]
AL: There was man.

[00:07:18.0]
RD: A man named, they called him Aberlado Devil. He was one of the oldest Devils, or rather, he dressed as Devil for the first time in Portobelo but the only difference was that the Devil was not baptized.

[00:07:34.1]
AL: They did not use to baptize him?

[00:07:34.8]
RD: Uh huh. They did not baptize the Devil. The Devil began to be baptized when Mr. Celedonio arrived . . .

[00:07:40.7]
AL: Uh huh!

[00:07:41.3]
RD: . . . to Portobelo. That is where it began. He taught my father how to baptize.

[00:07:46.7]
AL: So that tradition, Celedonio brought it?

[00:07:49.6]
RD: That is, that was born in Portobelo. Afterwards it went to Nombre de Dios and from there . . .

[00:07:55.2]
AL: Who started that tradition here in Portobelo?

[00:07:56.7]
RD: That man that I was telling you about.

[00:07:57.8]
AL: What is his name?

[00:07:58.7]
RD: They called him Abelardo Diablo.

[00:07:59.7]
AL: Abelardo. Write it down for me please.

[00:08:01.3]
RD: They called him Abelardo Diablo.

[00:08:05.4]
AL: His last name was Devil?

[00:08:06.7]
RD: That is what they called him.

[00:08:07.8]
AL: They called him that.

[00:08:08.4]
RD: Because he dressed (as Devil.)

[00:08:09.8]
AL: Ok. Write it down.

[00:08:11.2]
AL: The um, the tradition was begun here in the village. To the best of his recollection it was by this guy name Abelardo Diablo. It is what they would call him.

[00:08:20.7]
RD: Si. Hay que investigar bien cuál era el nombre real.

[00:08:26.0]
AL: That was not, you know, at that time there wasn’t a blessing of the Devil. Celedonio was the one that started doing the blessing of the Devil.

[00:08:33.6]
RD: Yes. You would have to investigate what his real name was. That is, Celedionio came here to be the third or fourth Devil.

[00:08:41.2]
AL: Si. Celedonio was the third or fourth Devil that was here. Now what we need to do is find out the real name of this guy. Abelardo Diablo.

[00:08:50.6]
AL: And who would know the complete name of Abelardo?

[00:08:54.6]
RD: Well I am going to ask the lady that gave me that information.

[00:08:58.0]
AL: Uh huh. He is going to ask the person that told him.

[00:09:00.6]
AL: And also ask your dad because he was here in the town then right?

[00:09:03.6]
RD: Yes.

[00:09:04.4]
AL: Uh huh. Anyway Abelardo Diablo. He is going to try to find out what his real name was because we gotta track that down.

[00:09:11.2]
RC: Ok.

[00:09:12.0]
AL: Now, he says . . . Go ahead.

[00:09:13.9]
RC: So before this time, the Devil was not blessed in Congo?

[00:09:20.0]
AL: No, before Celedonio it was not blessed. Celedonio introduced the notion of the blessing of the Devil.

[00:09:24.9]
RC: Ok and what did this guy introduce?

[00:09:27.2]
AL: The Devil.

[00:09:28.0]
RC: Just the Devil itself?

[00:09:29.1]
AL: Right. That is what he is saying. Now this is oral history.

[00:09:31.1]
RC: Ok. Right.

[00:09:31.4]
AL: So it really needs to be checked.

[00:09:35.0]
AL: Ok. So Celedonio was in Viento Frio was it?

[00:09:40.2]
RD: No. He used to live in Nombre de Dios.

[00:09:41.5]
AL: In Nombre de Dios?

[00:09:42.2]
RD: From Nombre de Dios he brought it to the village.

[00:09:44.6]
AL: So Celedonio comes from Nombre de Dios. So apparently what my understanding is, and I am going to check this out with him . . .

[00:09:51.4]
AL: Let me check this out. So you are telling me that this man, what is his name Devil, was the one that started the whole question of the Devil in Portobelo?

[00:10:01.0]
RD: Yes.

[00:10:01.4]
AL: So that tradition was already celebrated in other places?

[00:10:06.3]
RD: No. Just in Portobelo. It was the only place that did that with the Devil. It was in Portobelo and . . .

[00:10:11.7]
AL: I understand but the tradition had to travel to other places.

[00:10:13.5]
RD: That is to say it traveled. The second place it traveled to was Nombre de Dios.

[00:10:17.8]
AL: Ok. The next place . . .

[00:10:18.8]
RD: . . . to Nombre de Dios and to Colon. From there it went on expanding.

[00:10:22.5]
AL: The next place that picked up the Devil tradition was Nombre de Dios and Colon and from there it began to spread.

[00:10:31.2]
AL: That is to say that Celedonio is living in Nombre de Dios and the tradition of the Devil arrives in Nombre de Dios. So then he starts playing Devil in Nombre de Dios.

[00:10:41.1]
RD: Yes.

[00:10:41.5]
AL: . . . It could be that Celedionio was the one representing Devil . . . ?

[00:10:46.2]
RD: Yes.

[00:10:47.0]
AL: Ok. Celedonio is the person that began the Devil craft, tradition in Nombre de Dios, according to him. We have to ask the name. And then he brings that tradition here because he moves from Nombre de Dios to Portobelo. So he moved to Portobelo and the tradition was here already.

[00:11:08.6]
AL: But then Celedonio begins the baptism?

[00:11:10.7]
RD: Uh huh. He implemented that, that is to say, that when he got dressed (as Devil) he said, baptize me. Baptize me. No one knew (what that was) so he explained about the baptism and from there it began.

[00:11:23.4]
AL: So he said he used to ask people . . .

[00:11:24.8]
RD: Here they would only tie up the Devil. They tied him up.

[00:11:27.2]
AL: In these days when they caught the Devil they would just, you know, capture him and tie him. Celedonio started demanding that he be blessed. You know, and, so that is how that tradition began.

[00:11:38.2]
RC: Was there a priest before Celedonio?

[00:11:40.4]
AL: Was there someone who played the role of priest, before Celedonio arrived?

[00:11:47.9]
RD: I do not know. No, I mean, because they did not do baptisms. So before Celedonio, there were no priests.

[00:11:52.0]
AL: He says, no. That is a good question to find an answer another way because you can find a conflict there. He is saying no, there was not, there was not any priest that he knows of and so therefore, you know, really it began with Celedonio. This is very interesting because I thought the tradition dated all the way back.

[00:12:12.4]
RC: Ok.

[00:12:13.0]
AL: Well that is interesting because I was thinking that the Devil tradition came from olden times, colonial times, and you are telling me that it started in the twentieth century. We are going to have to have an interview also, you know, it would be better if the three of us go to see Celedonio one day to talk with him.

[00:12:31.0]
RD: That is fine. Just let me know.

[00:12:32.4]
AL: [To Renee] You know, this is, it would be good for us to go and talk with Celedonio but we should probably try and catch him before we try and go to the beach because he is going to be [distorted] by the time we get back and we are out of time. How many more questions do you have because some of these Celedonio can answer for us too.

[00:12:45.6]
RC: [To Arturo] Ok. Not all that many more because we are jumping back and forth and we are kind of in the middle. I want like to ask another . . . I am trying to place this in time.

[00:12:55.0]
AL: She is trying to have a chronology, no?

[00:13:00.2]
RC: When did Abelardo Diablo, when did he come around?

[00:13:07.8]
AL: In what year did Abelardo come to play Devil?

[00:13:10.0]
RD: Well I do not have any complete information about that.

[00:13:13.5]
AL: It could be that Celedonio has it right?

[00:13:16.0]
RD: Well see. I mean, we will have to ask him that.

[00:13:17.4]
AL: [To Renee] Let’s ask Celedonio because he is older.

[00:13:19.2]
RC: [To Arturo] Ok.

[00:13:20.1]
RD: Yes because we, I do not have that complete information. They just told me that the first Devil that played here was that man.

[00:13:26.4]
AL: Uh huh. Yes. Ok. So then . . .

[00:13:30.2]
AL: [To Renee] Do you have another question?

[00:13:31.2]
RC: When did you, at what time did you, what year did you go from Diablo Menor to Diablo Segundo?

[00:13:40.1]
AL: In what year did you go from Major Devil to Second Devil?

[00:13:51.4]
RD: In ‘70 something. ‘72.

[00:13:55.0]
AL: About ‘72. ‘73.

[00:13:56.7]
RD: ‘73. ‘72.

[00:13:58.6]
AL: Around ‘73.

[00:13:59.4]
RC: Ok.

[00:14:01.0]
RD: Yes when Carlos went to Russia, because he left and I was left in charge of the . . .

[00:14:05.2]
AL: No. I cannot be in ‘72 because you did not start until ‘82. That was, you are telling me that it was ten years before you started.

[00:14:14.5]
RD: After. After. That is . . . it was in . . .

[00:14:17.5]
AL: No but you had told her that . . .

[00:14:19.0]
RD: Ah, no. Yes. Yes you are right it was in ‘82. In ‘82. I mean, I am saying that it was when he (Carlos) went to Russia, that is when I started.

[00:14:27.5]
AL: Uh. When Carlos went to Russia is when he began to play Diablo Segundo.

[00:14:31.8]
RD: From then is when I began to . . .

[00:14:32.1]
RC: Ok.

[00:14:33.5]
AL: So in what year did Carlito go to Russia?

[00:14:36.4]
RD: He goes in . . . well I know he was there like five or six years or something like that.

[00:14:47.6]
AL: Yes. We will ask him.

[00:14:49.0]
RD: Uh huh. You can ask him and then we can clear up the date.

[00:14:53.1]
AL: Yes.

[00:14:54.1]
RC: Why do you think the role of the Devil is important? What does it mean to you to get to play the role?

[00:15:00.6]
AL: [To Renee] What is the question? Which one do you want?

[00:15:02.2]
RC: [To Arturo] The one what does it mean to you?

[00:15:03.7]
AL: What does it mean to you, the role of being Devil?

[00:15:09.6]
RD: I mean being Devil is . . . it is one of the . . . how do I explain it to you. Look in the old days, I mean, in colonial times the White man was the person . . .

[00:15:23.5]
AL: Before in the colonial period, the White, the Spaniard.

[00:15:27.0]
RD: that would beat the slave when they were in their culture,

[00:15:31.6]
AL: that went after the blacks . . .

[00:15:33.4]
RD: so now the Devil represents that role here.

[00:15:36.6]
AL: The, went after the blacks, and punished them. The Devil represents that Spaniard, you know, today.

[00:15:45.6]
AL: Because it comes out of your living voice but the question was more what does it mean for you. But, the question . . . I do not understand. I am happy that you have said that so she has it recorded because it is coming directly from you. But the questions was more what does it mean to you to play the Devil. Yes.

[00:16:00.0]
RD: I see it from the same point of view, from the point of view that, I mean, I see it from an artistic point of view. That is, what is in reality, art. I see it from that point of view.

[00:16:12.8]
AL: I see it from more of an artistic, you know, point of view.

[00:16:19.0]
AL: Continue.

[00:16:20.0]
RD: Yes. I see it from the point of view, I mean, when I go out I play the same role. When I go out to round up, instead of . . . When I go out to round up the Congos. That includes everyone that dresses Congo, women and all. That is, that is the role that it should have in that moment.

[00:16:38.2]
AL: That is to say, it is a very important role?

[00:16:40.3]
RD: Yes. As soon as I go out it is the first thing that I am going to do before I go to the . . .

[00:16:44.3]
AL: Uh huh. That I know but the question is more what does it mean to you. That is, some people like to play Devil because the Devils whip. Others like to dress as Congo because they can get drunk, I mean, there are different things that are part of the tradition, etc. Which is your, what is your reason?

[00:17:02.5]
RD: Uh uh. I mean I like the Devil game because, that is, I form part of the Congo group. I like it because it gets me directly involved with the Congo, I mean, I arrive at the center of what is Congo. I mean, for me I see it as very close.

[00:17:19.5]
AL: It is a very important role.

[00:17:20.6]
RD: Exactly. Congo and . . .

[00:17:21.8]
AL: If there is no Devil, there is no Congo right?

[00:17:23.0]
RD: Exactly. Congo and Devil, I mean, they are tied together. There is a link between them. The Congo and the Devil. They form that part.

[00:17:30.2]
AL: Let me explain it to her.

[00:17:32.0]
AL: He says, you know, on one hand it is a very artistic thing to be able to come out and do the performance, you know, to perform as Devil. On the other hand it is, you know, part of the history, it is part of the, it is part of the circle, you know, that makes the whole experience of the Congo, you know, happen. Without the Devil, there is no, you know, no Congo performances. And so it is an important role that links, you know, links everything together.

[00:18:00.0]
RC: Ok.

[00:18:00.7]
RD: I mean I like it a lot. When I go out, there is a tension. Here comes the Devil. Here comes the Devil. I mean, the people are already there.

[00:18:05.6]
AL: Yeah. He says what he likes about it also is that when he goes out, you know, there is a tension.

[00:18:09.6]
RC: Uh huh!

[00:18:10.2]
RD: Yes it creates a tension, that is, when I go to play, that the Devil is coming creates tension.

AL: The whole world is looking at the Devil.

[00:18:14.2]
RD: At the time that I got out, which is 12 midnight, the whole world has that tension. Here comes the Devil. Who is the Devil? When is the Devil coming? And when they hear the Devil, that is, the Devil grunts in the street the people stay there, that is, they live that moment.

[00:18:32.4]
AL: Hay que explicar eso cuando tú dices puja. He is saying when the Devil comes out and “puja” in the village.

[00:18:40.5]
AL: What does “grunt” mean?

[00:18:42.5]
RD: I mean, look, the grunt . . . the Devil has a mystery.

[00:18:45.7]
AL: The Devil has a mystery.

[00:18:47.2]
RD: The Devil is a mystery. That is, we see that when I grunt, I am challenging the other Devil.

[00:18:56.8]
AL: He says when I . . .

[00:18:58.4]
RD: The Devil of . . . the Devil Lucifer.

[00:19:02.2]
AL: What?

[00:19:02.7]
RD: To Lucifer. When I grunt I am imitating him with that grunt. No? So then . . .

[00:19:10.4]
AL: Wait. Wait. Explain it to me again. When you grunt . . .

[00:19:13.8]
RD: When I leave my house, I grunt three times before leaving.

[00:19:17.8]
AL: He, he has to, the pujo is a sound . . .

[00:19:20.7]
AL: but the word “pujido” comes from the sound a woman makes when she is trying to have . . .

[00:19:24.8]
RD: to have (a baby), but I mean I do not see it from that . . . that is, I understand it like this.

[00:19:30.3]
AL: What a minute. Let me ask her a question. Rosi. What does “pujido” mean. Pujido. Yes.

[Aside] Rosi: (Can’t hear what she says.)

[00:19:43.7]
AL: [Grunts.] Like that sound, right?

[00:19:46.1]
RD: Yes.

[00:19:46.5]
AL: But also is it not related to a woman when the woman is giving birth?

[00:19:50.2]
RD: Yes it is also. Uh huh.

[00:19:54.4]
Rosi: It is a push that makes a sound.

[00:19:59.0]
RD: Yes.

[00:19:59.6]
AL: The pujido is a sound that, you know, it is a force that you bring out of your body without . . . It is like the sound that a woman makes when she (grunts), you know to get, to push the baby out. So, you know, it comes out of that. But it is a (grunt) a pushing (grunt) you know, getting that out. That is the sound that is made. The pujido is very . . .

[00:20:28.0]
RC: The Devil makes?

[00:20:29.0]
AL: The Devil makes. Right. Now, the, he does the pujido three times when he comes out of his house. He . . .

[00:20:37.3]
AL: And that grunt is what?

[00:20:40.3]
RD: Well it is like, calling to the Devil forcefully, no? That is I go . . .

[00:20:45.3]
AL: You are calling to Lucifer?

[00:20:47.0]
RD: That is why I tell you . . .

[00:20:48.0]
AL: The Devil. The real Devil.

[00:20:49.4]
RD: Uh huh. That is why I tell you that the Devil has a mystery.

[00:20:52.1]
AL: Uh huh. The Devil of the village has a mystery.

[00:20:55.0]
RD: So then when you go out, that is, he, on the third (grunt) sometimes he answers you.

[00:21:02.5]
AL: Uh huh. He says um . . .

[00:21:03.2]
RD: So that sometimes I am left with his (Lucifer’s) grunt. No? And we go playing from there. That is the mystery that sometimes a lot of people will not tell you.

[00:21:11.5]
AL: He says that he has to make that sound three times. (Grunts) And in doing that he is challenging, or, you know, calling on Lucifer, you know, the actual Devil. Now this is another interpretation I have never heard. He says sometimes on the third time, you know, the Devil will answer you back. And with that pujido, you know, you know, he begins, you know, to go out, you know, to do whatever.

[00:21:35.4]
AL: Yo no sabía que el Diablo del pueblo, el Diablo de los Congos, tenía una relación con Lucifer.

[00:21:49.8]
RD: Well I do not play that game but various that have, like Celedonio and before Celedonio those people would go up into the mountains to dress as Devil. When they would come down and walk, one could feel the earth shake.

[00:22:02.8]
AL: When. When uh . . .

[00:22:04.0]
AL: So that grunt was to grab a force . . .

[00:22:07.1]
RD: A force, yes. It is like a force . . .

[00:22:07.6]
AL: a powerful force from the other side.

[00:22:10.9]
RD: Yes. From the other side. To represent the real Devil.

[00:22:11.5]
AL: Para . . .

[00:22:14.1]
AL: He says that the um, from what I am understanding here, and I am going to try to answer, to ask the question a couple of other ways to go at it, is that when he does his pujido, when he does his (grunts), you know, and on the third time, and in the old days when you used to get dressed up in the hills, you know, away from everybody, you know when you did that then the force, you know, comes back, you know, to him. And at that time when they come down they are really dealing with an external force. So it is almost like, at the risk of, you know, of pushing too much on it, it is almost like possession.

[00:22:46.2]
RC: Right.

[00:22:46.4]
AL: . . . you know.

[00:22:47.3]
AL: Ok. To not put words in your mouth, let’s see if I understand it. You grunt three times. Sometimes, the Devil answers you.

[00:23:00.7]
RD: He answers you. Yes.

[00:23:01.8]
AL: And when the Devil answers you, you are given even more power.

[00:23:05.9]
RD: Exactly.

[00:23:06.4]
AL: So you can tell me if we are talking about, like, a possession.

[00:23:10.8]
RD: Uh huh.

[00:23:12.0]
AL: I do not want to put words in your mouth.

[00:23:12.6]
RD: Yes. Yes. That is it. Yes. That is it.

[00:23:14.8]
AL: So like a possession of the real Devil . . .

[00:23:17.4]
RD: Of the Devil. Exactly.

[00:23:18.2]
AL: . . . that enters the person?

[00:23:20.0]
RD: Yes.

[00:23:23.4]
AL: He said, yeah. You know, it is, you know, sort of like a, sort of demonic possession.

[00:23:26.1]
RD: I say that it is almost like, people are not going to tell you that because it is something that they have hidden.

[00:23:29.6]
AL: . . . People are not going to tell you this. Because it is something that is more occult and this is more, you know, things that happen in various places. I find it a little questionable and we can, you know, check it some other ways also.

[00:23:42.8]
RC: Ok. When you play Devil . . .

[00:23:46.9]
AL: When you are playing Devil . . .

RC: do you feel like you are moving yourself more, or do you feel like you are being moved more by another force?

[00:23:53.8]
AL: . . . do you feel when you are playing Devil like you yourself are doing the movements or is there another force?

[00:24:00.0]
RD: One can feel a force inside of you. The moment that you get dressed as Devil you feel like you are another person. A total other person.

[00:24:02.8]
AL: You feel . . . The moment that you put that, that, that stuff on your feel another being. That is a question to ask the Congos also because it is the same thing.

[00:24:14.9]
RD: Yes. There is automatically another person.

[00:24:17.7]
RC: Ok.

[00:24:18.4]
AL: You automatically, you know, you feel yourself as another person.

[00:24:21.6]
RC: Ok. How long have you lived in the village?

[00:24:23.1]
AL: How long have you lived in the village?

[00:24:24.6]
RD: In the village. Almost all of my life.

[00:24:29.3]
AL: The greater part of his life.

[00:24:30.0]
RC: Ok. When did you move away?

[00:24:33.6]
AL: When did you move?

[00:24:36.1]
RD: Like . . .

[00:24:36.8]
AL: To Pilon?

[00:24:37.4]
RD: To Pilon? Three years ago or so.

[00:24:38.8]
AL: About three years now.

[00:24:39.5]
RD: Yes because I have a few years of living outside (of the village).

[00:24:40.0]
RC: Ok. And how far is that?

[00:24:43.0]
AL: Pilon is right when you start going to Sabanitas. When you get there, you hit the stop and take a left. Pilon is right . . . when you take a left you go to Pilon.

[00:24:49.6]
RC: Ok. But you still consider yourself Portobeleñan?

[00:24:52.0]
AL: ¿Pero tú todavía te sientes como Portobeleño?

[00:24:53.8]
RD: Of course. 100%.

[00:24:56.8]
AL: Yes. Yeah. 100%.

[00:24:58.6]
RC: Ok. And where are you parents . . . were you parents Portobeleñan or where did they come from?

[00:25:05.0]
AL: Your family, your parents are originally from Portobelo?

[00:25:08.6]
RD: From here.

[00:25:09.5]
AL: Yeah. No, they are from here.

[00:25:12.2]
RC: And this is one more quick question about the costumes. Do you make your own, do you make your costumes and do they change?

[00:25:15.7]
AL: You are the designer . . . do you make your Congo costume, Devil costume. You sew it and everything?

[00:25:24.7]
RD: Yes, I do it myself.

[00:25:25.6]
AL: Yes he does his own thing.

[00:25:26.5]
RD: I cut and make my costume.

[00:25:28.2]
RC: Ok. Ok.

[00:25:29.7]
AL: Alright?

[00:25:30.4]
AL: Let’s go talk outside.

[00:25:31.6]
RC: Ok. He will be back next week?

[00:25:33.6]
AL: Yeah. We are gonna get him next week.

[00:25:34.2]
RC: Ok. We will talk more.

[00:25:35.1]
AL: And he may be around later tonight also.

[00:25:36.4]
RC: Ok.

[00:25:37.0]
AL: We are going to see if we can grab Celedonio.

[00:25:38.3]
RD: He is in the church right now.

[00:25:40.0]
AL: Ah Yes.

[00:25:42.2]